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Post by nolan on Aug 31, 2006 14:27:20 GMT -5
If someone would make a list like this up for artists that would be great.
This is probably the best basic list for aspiring comic writers/creators that I can assemble.
If you disagree with what I've put on here or the reasons for it then feel free to discuss it.
Nolan's Recommended Reading List for Aspiring Comic Book Writers in Order.
1. Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud. 2/3. Graphic Storytelling by Will Eisner AND Comics & Sequential Art by Will Eisner (Either order)
4. Writing For Comics with Peter David by Peter David. 5. Alan Moore's Writing for Comics. 6/7. Writers on Comic Scriptwriting Volumes 1 and 2, edited by Mark Salisbury (Vol. 1), Andrew Kardon and Tom Root (Vol. 2)
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Post by mikem on Aug 31, 2006 17:11:06 GMT -5
I have tried reading Scott McCloud's book, I can't get into it. Its got to be one of the most boring books I've ever read.
I actually liked the DC Guide to Writing by Denny O'Neil.
Personally, for a writer, I think reading sample scripts is the best thing. Its amazing to see the differences between writers and how the interact with their artists.
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Post by nolan on Aug 31, 2006 20:46:28 GMT -5
I've read the DC Guide to Writing Comics. Honestly, I didn't find it anywhere near as useful as the books I've listed.
Now for my reasons for this order.
First off, I wanted to make sure people had a firm grasp on the storytelling medium. Thats why I included the Eisner and McCloud books. Because you need to start by knowing everything you could do and realizing that comics can be more then just superheroes. I'm a firm believer in starting from a useful theoretical framework and all three of the books I've listed provide that.
Secondly, David's book is the best introductory text. Despite the fact that I do have some reservations about it (and I have quite a lengthy Amazon review that goes in to it), it is the best introductory text and it does a good job showing both the theoretical and practical sides of comic book writing.
Moore's book is more related to the ideas around writing comics so its a good fit after you've had a more general introduction to the subject.
And then the Writers on Comic Scriptwriting books allow you to look at the issue from other perspectives.
But, by no means should you not read as many comics scripts as you can in between.
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Post by davidaccampo on Sept 2, 2006 2:42:36 GMT -5
I know this is specific to comics writing, but kinda like Mike, I'm tempted to say that the best stuff is just reading scripts. That said, Nolan's mention of McCloud and Eisner are also important to anyone writing comics. Now, this is probably very much based on my writing experience, but I'd almost recommend a study on writing that goes something like this: - 1. Bird by Bird by Anne Lammott -- just to inspire you to write. Some good stuff in here about writing as well, like "The shitty first draft."
- 2. Writing Fiction - A Guide to Narrative Craft by Janet Burroway. Now, caveat here: books about writing are often crap and should never be taken as a pure method. That said, once you scrape off all the books that inspire you to write, I found that this book has some good points on narrative craft.
- 3. Story - Robert McKee - See above comments about books on writing, but I think this is important to have read. Many editors and publishers cite McKee, so it's important to note what they're looking for. And there is some useful stuff in there.
- ---you can probably also throw some David Mamet in here...I've read a little of his stuff and liked it, but the same caveat holds true.
- 4. McCloud and Eisner...study the language and structure of COMICS now...
- 5. Read a bunch of scripts.
So, that'd be my list -- it starts with general storytelling tools and then looks at comics last. To me, that'd be the way to go. Note: I haven't read David's book OR Moore's book. I did read the Writers on Comics Scriptwriting when it first came out. It was alright. First script I ever read was Neil Gaiman's script in back of the second volume of The Sandman. This was before anyone was really publishing scriptbooks, so I thank DC for that. And like you guys probably also do, I read just about every interview or article on writing that I find on the internet or in magazines. I've gotten to a point now where I know when it's advice that I can either discard or take to heart. But it's always good to be reading up on everything current writers are saying when they talk about their craft.
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Post by nolan on Sept 2, 2006 3:10:28 GMT -5
Dave, I'm just glad you didn't put down Campbell We wouldn't wnat another page or two of fighting about whether or not he's useful for writers (but we have a thread for that). Same with Aristotle's Poetics (which, honestly, I find questionable outside the realm of ancient greek tragedy but thats another story). I think you showed the weakness of it. I wanted to put things down only specific to comic writing. I am not even remotely familiar with the first 4 things on your list with the exception of McKee. But I think I'm going to go back and change it to put some non-comic things on there. I agree with you that it was important to start wth the intellectual base first and then move on to comics. But I think that you could read both comic and non comic versions of something to get two perspectives. I think in our submission guidelines we put the script to Mike Carey's Lucifer #4 in there as a reference but there are a lot of other ones online. I know the first issues of Fell, Desolation Jones and Ministry of Space are online.
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Post by nolan on Sept 2, 2006 3:11:15 GMT -5
This just gave me the idea of trying to make up some kind of course of reading about this.
Hmmmm.....
I may have to give this one a try.
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Post by mikem on Sept 2, 2006 12:12:06 GMT -5
Did I mention I hate McCloud's book? lol
All of these books are useful, but none of them are going to teach you how to write. The only way to get better at writing is to do it. Also, while helpful, the only I think someone can learn to pace their stories is if they write them and experience it themselves.
The screenplay I'm working on now started as a comic script, but I just wasn't feeling the pacing at all. So I decided to make it a screenplay instead.
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Post by nolan on Sept 2, 2006 12:18:51 GMT -5
Mike, I heard you.
But McCloud is the best book to show people the full storytelling potential of the comic medium. We need to show people everything that comics are capable of before they start writing anything.
And BTW, no book is going to teach you how to write. The best that I think we could do is give people tools and a critical vocabulary to work within the comic medium and then provide them a way to hone their own voice as artists.
BTW, I have a revised list.
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Post by davidaccampo on Sept 2, 2006 14:52:53 GMT -5
Oh, I think McCloud's first book is really important. Now, anyone whose read comics for awhile is going to see a lot of that material as "well, duh, that's obvious..."...but I think it's really worthwhile to have all of that info dissected and analyzed in one place. I've gotten a good deal of use from his chapters on passage of time and panel to panel transition.
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Post by nolan on Sept 2, 2006 22:25:56 GMT -5
Its not obvious.
Hes telling you things to look for consciously that youve already subconsciously absorbed.
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Post by nolan on Sept 3, 2006 1:25:43 GMT -5
Revised Reading List.
And I have revised this in light of providing people with a useful set of critical and artistic tools to help not only tell stories but to tell stories in one's own voice.
PART 1: BASIC OVERVIEW OF THE SEQUENTIAL MEDIUM
Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud Graphic Storytelling by Will Eisner Comics & Sequenial Art by Will Eisner
After this, reflect on the unique things that the comic medium offers that other media (stage, screen and prose in particular) can not offer in terms of storytelling. Then try to figure out how that can apply to your strengths and weaknesses as a writer.
With a background in what the medium can do in terms of storytelling, its time to move on to the actual writing.
PART TWO: BASIC WRITING
Writing For Comics With Peter David Fiction Writer's Workshop by Josip Novakovich
NOvakovich gives a broad overview of storytelling tools and how to use them. David gives the same thing only focused on comics, but NOvakovich has a lot more exercises that you can use to generate stories.
PART THREE: ADVANCED WRITING
Alan Moore's Writing for Comics by Alan Moore Writers on Comic Scriptwriting Vol. 1 and 2.
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Post by davidaccampo on Sept 3, 2006 23:00:17 GMT -5
Its not obvious. Hes telling you things to look for consciously that youve already subconsciously absorbed. Yes. That's what was trying to say. uh, you just said it better.
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Post by nolan on Sept 4, 2006 2:20:51 GMT -5
Its not obvious. Hes telling you things to look for consciously that youve already subconsciously absorbed. Yes. That's what was trying to say. uh, you just said it better. One of the hardest things a person can tyr to do is to consciously think about what they have subconsciously absorbed.
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weit
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by weit on Sept 9, 2006 10:54:43 GMT -5
Did I mention I hate McCloud's book? lol All of these books are useful, but none of them are going to teach you how to write. The only way to get better at writing is to do it. Also, while helpful, the only I think someone can learn to pace their stories is if they write them and experience it themselves. The screenplay I'm working on now started as a comic script, but I just wasn't feeling the pacing at all. So I decided to make it a screenplay instead. I understand why you would think reading more scripts will be useful to you but at the end of the day you are working on comic books and your audience will only see the finished product, not the script and this is on of the very reasons why most companies read through a script. To be a better writer (from my opinion anyways) you would need to understand visual storytelling because again at the end of the day the sequential art is there to compliment your story and dialogue to enhance the work overall. We all know what its like not wanting to do something because we find it boring but if its important in becoming the best writer you possibly can then you have to do it, as painful it is for you its got to be done lol
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Post by nolan on Sept 9, 2006 13:26:41 GMT -5
Did I mention I hate McCloud's book? lol All of these books are useful, but none of them are going to teach you how to write. The only way to get better at writing is to do it. Also, while helpful, the only I think someone can learn to pace their stories is if they write them and experience it themselves. The screenplay I'm working on now started as a comic script, but I just wasn't feeling the pacing at all. So I decided to make it a screenplay instead. I understand why you would think reading more scripts will be useful to you but at the end of the day you are working on comic books and your audience will only see the finished product, not the script and this is on of the very reasons why most companies read through a script. To be a better writer (from my opinion anyways) you would need to understand visual storytelling because again at the end of the day the sequential art is there to compliment your story and dialogue to enhance the work overall. We all know what its like not wanting to do something because we find it boring but if its important in becoming the best writer you possibly can then you have to do it, as painful it is for you its got to be done lol Reading scripts is useful. I wasn't trying to underplay that at all. But at the same time, I took it as a given that people would be reading comic scripts. I wanted to focus on things that I thought would help someone understand the art of sequential storytelling better, regardless of what kind of project you were doing (though there would be a huge difference between the kinds of storytelling tools you'd use for a Ghost World like project v. like Ultimate Howard the Duck or something). And McCloud's book does a better job of that then just about any other one out there. So do the two Eisner books. If it were up to me, I probably would have added three more things on there. 1. Critical Theory Today by Lois Tyson. We've used it in two of my university English classes, its an overview of most of the contemporary critical theories (Marxism, Feminism, Psychoanalysis, Postcolonial, Deconstruction, New Historicism, etc.). Using that would not only give people a vocabulary of practical storytelling terms, but a vocabulary of critical terms not only for comics but for everything one reads in general. And that would provide incredibly useful tools for storytelling to be able to consciously look at a work in terms of class, ideology, gender roles, othering, ambiguity, etc. 2. The Norton Critical Edition of something. It really doesn't matter what book it is. But its incredibly useful to be able to read a work of literature and then be able to see it not only within its historical context with contemporary sources and then to be able to look at the criticism of it. 3. One of the Case Studies in Contemporary Criticism series from Bedford/St. Martin's PRess. Again, it doesn't really matter what one. Then you'd not only get a work of literature, you'd get one with an introduction to 5 or 6 critical theories and then an application of those theories to a specific work of literature. So why two? Well, the Norton books do a great job of contextualizing a work but the Case Studies tend to do a better job of criticizing something and making the theories apparent for people. But I think its important to be able to contextualize your work, especially if you are doing a story set in a historical period. teh absolute worst thing one can do when writing a historical story is to write a modern story with period dress. Now what I wouldn't recommend is anything vaguely related to Joseph Campbell, especially the books where his theories are applied "for writers." Thats an even more worthless and harmful version of something thats already worthless and harmful to start. However, I think I may disagree with you a bit regarding your "art as a compliment to the dialogue and story" aspect. I don't think that the art could be separated from the other story elements adn its vital that one look at the art as being as much a part of the story as the dialogue or other elements. And I think thats something that far too many beginning comic writers fail to understand. Art is part and parcel with story in comics. Almost any successful comic story has either harmony or play between the art and the story (though i would question 'harmony'). And quite a few comic stories have failed because the art and story clashed, look at Golgotha (the first arc of Peter Milligan's x-Men run). The entire story fell apart because the artist couldn't get the dark tone of it (well the run failed later on for a lot of reasons). Honestly, it seemed to me that he wasn't even trying either.
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